Annual General Meetings/2024/Minutes

From OpenStreetMap Foundation

Date: 19 October 2024
Place: IRC chat room #osmf-gm on the IRC network irc.oftc.net.

Participants

Board Members

  • Arnalie Vicario (arnalie)
  • Craig Allan (Craig_Allan[m])
  • Guillaume Rischard (grischard[m])
  • Mateusz Konieczny (matkoniecz[m])
  • Roland Olbricht (drolbr[m])
  • Sarah Hoffmann (Sarah[m])

Apologies

- Officers and board
- Biographies

Other Foundation Members

This list includes both normal and associate members:

54 Non-board members
Adi Purnama, Alen Šiljak, Allan Mustard, Amanda McCann, Andres Gomez Casanova, Andy Townsend, Anna Zanchetta , Arianit Dobroshi, Arun Ganesh, Brazil Singh, Can Ünen, Chris Foote, Ciaran Staunton, Courtney Williamson, David Haberthür, Dennis Raylin Chen, Donal Hunt, Dorothea Kazazi, Emerson Rocha, Frederik Ramm, Héctor Ochoa Ortiz, Ilya Zverev, Imre Samu, Jerry Clough, Kashish Sharma, Klaus-Peter Herrmann, Laura Mugeha, Maggie Cawley, Manfred Reiter, Manfred Stock, Markus Voge, Md Atikuzzaman Limon, Michael Montani, Michael Reichert, Michael Spreng, Mikel Maron, Minh Nguyen, Norbert Dichter, Osvaldo R. Salazar Sánchez, Raphael Borun Das Gupta, Reinhard Zwirner, Rolf Eike Beer, Saliou Abdou, Séverin Ménard, Simon Poole, Stefan Haan, Steve Friedl, Thibault Molleman, Thomas Körner, Thorsten Gau, Tobias Knerr, Vineet Menon, Vivek Matthew, Zeke Farwell.

(54 non-board foundation members - for a total of at least 60 attendees who are members).

12 Guests

Non-members and participants who did not provide their full name.

Andre Thum, cl0wn, dani504, fugata, Guest6821, huincul , lub, luks, midgard, orkut, Phil Barnes, Tomas_J.

IRC Log - Saturday 19 October 2024

The meeting was conducted over IRC, and the channel was also bridged to Matrix.
IP addresses have been obfuscated.
Time in UTC.

16:01* grischard[m] (~grischard@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:01 grischard[m]: Hello everyone!
16:01 datendelphin: Hello
16:01 rtnf: Hello~
16:01* drolbr[m] (~drolbrmat@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:01 drolbr[m]: Hello
16:01* Sarah[m] (~sarahpart@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:01 Sarah[m]: Good evening.
16:01* vonter_ (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:02* donalhunt[m] (~donalhunt@2001:470:1af1:101::7454) has joined
16:02 donalhunt[m]: Good afternoon.
16:02 grischard[m]: We will soon begin the OSMF's 2024 AGM. Whether it's your first time here, or you've been idling on this chat channel for a few years, welcome :)
16:02* Michael_Montani (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:02* Maggiemaps (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:02 grischard[m]: First things first, please all message dorothea your full name for the attendance in the minutes.
16:02* Nakaner2 (~michael@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:03* AngocA (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:03 SeverinGeo: For a few years? Is there any activity in this channel except once a year? :)
16:03* Nakaner (~nakaner@***.***.***.***) has left
16:03 das-g[m]: Idling doesn't involve activities.
16:04 unen[m]: SeverinGeo: Ones who forget to log out :D
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16:04 grischard[m]: Maybe we can have memes in the summer next year.
16:04 grischard[m]: Ok, allo five minutes for late arrivals
16:04 grischard[m]: *allowing
16:04* ImreSamu[m] (~imresamum@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:04 grischard[m]: I have posted my 2024 chairperson's report at https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Stereo/diary/405356
16:05* SK53bis (~Thunderbi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:05 Nakaner2: I am writing here on behalf of 10 OSMF members currently participating at Karlsruhe OpenStreetMap Hack Weekend.
16:05 grischard[m]: The agenda is at https://osmfoundation.org/wiki/Annual_General_Meetings/2024
16:05 drolbr[m]: FYI to participants on Element: smilies and similar do to pass to IRC.
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16:06* luks (aa7e93d3ec@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:06 grischard[m]: Let's begin, shall we?
16:06 grischard[m]: Mr Secretary, have we received any apologies for absence? Craig Allan
16:06 CraigAllan[m]: I'm here
16:06 CraigAllan[m]: No apologies received to date
16:06* huincul_ (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:06* ChanServ gives channel operator status to Sarah[m]
16:07* AngocA (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:07 grischard[m]: Thank you.
16:07 grischard[m]: We move on to the approval of the minutes. The chair will entertain a motion to approve the 2023 minutes - Dorothea can we please have a link?
16:07 Brazil_Singh: Hi everyone hope doing well?
16:08 dorothea: Previous minutes: https://osmfoundation.org/wiki/Annual_General_Meetings/2023/Minutes
16:08 CraigAllan[m]: I move approval of the 2023 minutes
16:08 grischard[m]: And when we have a motion, can we get a second
16:08 datendelphin: I second the motion
16:08* BrazilSingh[m] (~brazilsin@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:08 grischard[m]: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on the minutes?
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16:09 grischard[m]: I don't expect to, because they're pretty much a copy-paste of the irc logs, so let's move to a vote.
16:09 grischard[m]: And I see no one typing.
16:09* mxn (~mxn@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:09 grischard[m]: Those in favour of approving the 2023 minutes, say aye
16:09 grischard[m]: aye
16:09 CraigAllan[m]: Aye
16:09 rtnf: aye
16:09 trigpoint: aye
16:09 arnalie: aye
16:10 HctorOchoaOrtiz[m]: aye
16:10 unen[m]: aye
16:10 cicko: aye
16:10 NorbertDichter[m]: aye
16:10 ciupava[m]: aye
16:10 Nakaner2: aye times 10
16:10 datendelphin: aye
16:10 luks: aye
16:10 Michael_Montani: aye
16:10 simonpoole[m]: aye
16:10 donalhunt[m]: I think there is a typo at the end (problems). I presume that is to ensure people read the whole thing. 🤣
16:10* unen[m] is now known as CanUnen[m]
16:10 drolbr: aye
16:10 das-g[m]: aye
16:10 BrazilSingh[m]: aye
16:10 SeverinGeo: I agree
16:11 donalhunt[m]: * the end of the chairpersons report (problems). I
16:11 grischard[m]: donalhunt: if there's a typo that doesn't change the meaning, can you message dorothea so she can fix it?
16:11* cl0wn (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:11 huincul_: hi
16:11 donalhunt[m]: It's for the 2024 chairpersons report. Minor typo. Does not change the content.
16:11* Osvaldo (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:11 grischard[m]: Ah thanks! Message me then :)
16:11* LauraMugeha[m] (~laura-mu_@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:12 grischard[m]: And if you're against approving the 2023 minutes, or abstaining, say so now.
16:12 cl0wn: hello where i can see voting result?
16:12 grischard[m]: cl0wn: it will be later in the meeting.
16:12 grischard[m]: No nays, no abstentions. The 2023 minutes are approved unanimously.
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16:13 grischard[m]: The next item on the agenda is the chairperson's report
16:14 grischard[m]: I have just posted my report over at https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Stereo/diary/405356 . This was more difficult to write than in previous years, because board politics have been heavy. I hope we can reboot the board at this election, and get a lot more done next year.
16:14* AngocA has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
16:14 grischard[m]: I would also be thankful for any helpful advice from the community on how we can do that.
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16:15* ezekielf[m] (~ezekielfm@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:15 grischard[m]: Next up in the agenda is the treasurer's report. drolbr the floor is yours.
16:16 drolbr: I'll copy-paste the link unless Dorothea is faster :)
16:16 grischard[m]: She always is :)
16:16 dorothea: Treasurer's report: https://osmfoundation.org/wiki/Annual_General_Meetings/2024/Treasurer%27s_report
16:16 dorothea: Official Financial Statement 2023: https://osmfoundation.org/w/images/5/5a/FY2023_Full_accounts.pdf
16:16 dorothea: Preliminary Profit and Loss 2024: https://osmfoundation.org/w/images/1/10/FY2024_draft_Profit_and_Loss.pdf
16:16 dorothea: Preliminary Balance Sheet 2024: https://osmfoundation.org/w/images/a/ad/FY2024_draft_Balance_Sheet.pdfhe
16:16 drolbr: +1
16:17 drolbr: Please feel free to ask questions. This is about FY2023.
16:17 grischard[m]: We don't know how she does it either. Thank you Roland. Any comments from you, or shall we move on?
16:17 arnalie: thanks, for preparing this, Roland!
16:17 Nakaner2: Is there a reason that the official report of the chairperson is in their personal diary and not on the Foundation website?
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16:17 grischard[m]: Nakaner2: no
16:18* huincul (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:18 Nakaner2: thanks
16:18 grischard[m]: Nakaner2: I'd also posted 2023 and 2022 there, and Allan had been doing it that way too. They get posted to the foundation site later - maybe when I've found and fixed that typo Donal has mentioned :)
16:18* kphklaus (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***)has joined
16:18 HctorOchoaOrtiz[m]: dorothea: the URL has a typo, the last two letters "he" should be removed, so the link works 👍️
16:19 dorothea: thanks :) Preliminary Balance Sheet 2024: https://osmfoundation.org/w/images/a/ad/FY2024_draft_Balance_Sheet.pdf
16:20 grischard[m]: Are there any comments or questions on the chairperson or treasurer reports?
16:20* Limon_ (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:20 grischard[m]: Seeing no typing, I'll move on to the personnel commitee's report.
16:20* mvineetmenon (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:21 grischard[m]: Sarah you're presenting this? The floor is yours.
16:21 Sarah[m]: You find the report at https://osmfoundation.org/wiki/Annual_General_Meetings/2024/Personnel_committee's_report. Happy to answer any questions.
16:21* Laura_ (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:21 arnalie: thanks, Sarah!
16:22 grischard[m]: Thank you Sarah. Any comments or questions from the members?
16:23 SeverinGeo: I just read the Chairperson's report and I am discovering that there are internal conflicts within the board, what I did not notice when attedings some of the public meetings. I have never been in favor of the hidden ones created a few years ago ,and this is a new argument for my own opinion
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16:23* laura-mugeha[m] (~laura-mug@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:23 grischard[m]: SeverinGeo: the mid-month board meetings are meant for status updates and collaboration, not decision taking. If a decision were to be taken outside of a board meeting, it would not be legal.
16:24 grischard[m]: The internal conflicts have also happened on the board chat. Working together more than once a month, and even having constructive disagreement sometimes, is necessary for any work to happen.
16:24* infolimon[m] (~infolimon@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:25 grischard[m]: But once again, we don't take decisions behind closed doors. And we don't air our dirty laundry in public.
16:25 infolimon[m]: Waiting for the result.
16:26 grischard[m]: I've done fantastic work with people I'd disagreed with on the board before that, some of them amongst the alumni in the audience right now.
16:26 grischard[m]: Right, I won't delay the election results further :). If there are no more comments or questions on the reports?
16:27* Saliousoft (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:27 grischard[m]: Has anyone had any issues voting, trouble casting their ballot?
16:27 CanUnen[m]: If other board members want to elaborate on that, we can hear, I guess.
16:27* MaggieMaps (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:28 grischard[m]: Can Unen: is that a yes to having problems voting?
16:28* Tomas_J (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:28 grischard[m]: Your thumbs up
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16:28 CanUnen[m]: No, I meant all good on the voting.
16:28 CanUnen[m]: No problems
16:28 HctorOchoaOrtiz[m]: grischard[m]: I did not have any issue voting, but I have heard of someone not receiving their ballot. I suggested them to contact Dorothea, and after contacting, their vote was granted. I am wondering if more people had the same issues, and their voting mail never arrived.
16:28 grischard[m]: Good!
16:29 rtnf: The ballot casting works fine on my end.
16:29 grischard[m]: Héctor Ochoa Ortiz: we can only deal with actual reports now. Yes, there were some issues, but to the best of our knowledge, everyone who was qualified to vote was able to cast a ballot - is that correct dorothea ?
16:30* cl0wn (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:30 CanUnen[m]: Will we get numbers on absentees and the empty ballots as well?
16:30 dorothea: everyone who had reported a problem had their membership assessed by the MWG and me, and if it was eligible, they were added to the election
16:31 grischard[m]: Thank you.
16:31 mvineetmenon: Empty ballots can be an indicator for possible trouble in voting.
16:31 drolbr: You usually can download the raw results.
16:31 grischard[m]: datendelphin: can you please close the voting?
16:31 dorothea: CanUnen: yes
16:31 arnalie: Just want to give credit and thanks to MWG esp Michael and Bogomil, and Dorothea, for being prompt to respond to issues in the election
16:31 grischard[m]: You can download the raw results, and compare with the membership numbers in my chairperson report.
16:31* mikecc (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:31 datendelphin: Voting is closed
16:32 grischard[m]: Thank you datendelphin. Please let me know when we have the results counted.
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16:32 arnalie: 🥁 🥁 🥁
16:32 grischard[m]: This usually takes a few minutes, so we'll have a short break in the meeting.
16:32 grischard[m]: And all the candidates for board have sweaty palms right now :)
16:33 grischard[m]: I'd like to thank all the candidates who ran for the board. Some of you won't get elected; please run again. It took me a few tries to get in, years of gaining experience through the working groups.
16:35* planemad (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:35 grischard[m]: Winners are Craig Allan, Maurizio Napolitano, Laura Mugeha, and Héctor Ochoa Ortiz.
16:35 grischard[m]: I'd like to thank the retiring board members, arnalie , matkoniecz and Sarah
16:36 cicko: congratulations
16:36 grischard[m]: Do we have any other business today?
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16:36 grischard[m]: If you'd like to bring up any other business, just type it in the chat.
16:37 CraigAllan[m]: Special thanks to our outgoing chair for his service during the year.
16:37 am{ap}anda: Congratutions to the new directors. And well done to everyone who stood. Not many people stand for the board.
16:37 am{ap}anda: Thanks to the volunteers who made this election happen! :)
16:37 infolimon[m]: infolimon:Congratutions to the new directors.
16:38 mvineetmenon: Congratulations to the new board members..
16:38 arnalie: Congratulations, Laura, Craig, Hector and Mauritizio!
16:38* tracker51 (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:38 fugatatheythem[m]12: Congratulations!
16:38 BrazilSingh[m]: Congratulations to the new board members❤️❤️❤️❤️
16:38 grischard[m]: If there is no other business, the chair will entertain a motion to adjourn
16:38 arnalie: Honored to serve in the board. I think every board member tries their best to work with a diverse set of fellow board they're in. That is what I witnessed for the past 2 years. So thanks Sarah, Roland, Mateusz, Craig and Dani! :)
16:38 CanUnen[m]: Congrats all. Looking forward to a great term.
16:38 Michael_Montani: Congratulations to the new board members, it was fun to run as a candidate :) Thanks also to the outgoing members!
16:39 grischard[m]: Of the 1971 voters in this election, 740 cast ballots.
16:39 arnalie: thank you Can, Michael, Courtney, Andres, Brazil, and Arun for running 3
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16:39 drolbr: Congrats from me, too. And a thank you to all the candidates. It took me too multiple attemps.
16:40 BrazilSingh[m]: arnalie: Thank you too you arnalie, we will run again😇
16:40 Nakaner2: thank you all from Karlsruhe Hack Weekend
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16:40 ImreSamu[m]: https://opavote.com/results/5126142787846144
16:41* courtneyc[m] (~courtneyc@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:41 courtneyc[m]: Sorry to be behind in the thread, but I had trouble voting, and just because people who reported problems, got their problems fixed, doesn't mean that the problem is solved. It just means that the people who. noticed the problem got it solved. I remain concerned about people who didn't get to vote, who should have had the chance.
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16:42 planemad: Congratulations to the new board and also every OSMF member, we have great set of folks to lead the foundation!
16:42 courtneyc[m]: also Congratulations! I am sorry to be late to the conversation.
16:42 arnalie: @Courtney, that is true. As Board liaison to MWG, I have witnessed this. We are undercapacity in the MWG, and CiviCRM has lots of issues. So recommending to the next board to keep a keen eye on this.
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16:42 grischard[m]: Yes. I used to help take care of civicrm, our membership system. It needs a board member who takes time to understand it to take care of it.
16:42* ceyu (0fb454a187@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:43 James_E_A: I see the voting e-mails did not have Read Receipt Requests turned on, but that they did have some remote images embedded. Were any of those tracking pixels, and if so will that data be made available?
16:43 datendelphin: Results: https://opavote.com/results/5126142787846144
16:43 courtneyc[m]: arnalie: I'm deeply concerned because you all worked really hard, and yet there are still issues. To me, this is a huge priority else, how can we trust our voting process?
16:43 courtneyc[m]: I will happily volunteer to work on the CRM - it really just seems unacceptable to have a voting process with this many errors
16:44 courtneyc[m]: I don't understand how we can have a functional membership organization without having functional membership data and voting processes. This seems foundational. I will happily work from the CWG to find a good solution.
16:44 mvineetmenon: There are 23 empty votes, it might be considered that all were because of technical issues.
16:45 courtneyc[m]: What percent of the votes are those 23?
16:45 datendelphin: Can you quantify "this many?"
16:45 arnalie: my personal opinion would be, and it would be an unpopular one, is to explore other platforms. CiviCRM has failed us twice in a row now.
16:45* SeverinGeo2 (~SeverinGe@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:45 courtneyc[m]: And those are just votes that weren't successful? Do ywe have anyway to track how many people received a notice that they were not allowed to vote, even though they were eligible? That is what happened to me.
16:45 courtneyc[m]: I think arnalie is right about the CRM - the team worked hard and it still didn't work.
16:47 courtneyc[m]: To be clear to all. I got a notice that said I wasn't eligible. I knew I was, so I forwarded it to the membership committee. Is there a way to track those who got an incorrect notice, but did not question it?
16:47 grischard[m]: Having worked with civicrm and with other platforms, they all have their sharp corners. I pulled back from working on civicrm, and no one else took the time to understand it.
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16:47 courtneyc[m]: I don't understand why more people aren't upset about this? How can we trust the voting process.
16:47 mvineetmenon: @courtneyc, 23 out of 740
16:47* sgrubsmyon (~sgrubsmyo@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:48 courtneyc[m]: 740 ballots sent in, correct? Do we have a count of # of incorrect "you are not eligible to vote" notices that were sent?
16:48 rtnf: Given that there's some dispute here, is there any mechanism to appeal the result of the election, or should we accept it as it is?
16:48 courtneyc[m]: (This has nothing to do with the result. As many of you know, I've been talking about this for awhile - i just really think it matters that people get their ballots.)
16:49 courtneyc[m]: I certainly am not suggesting an appeal. I just want a permanent fix for the membership data to be a #1 priority.
16:49 grischard[m]: rtnf: I guess that would be covered by the UK companies act. I think Courtney is right about this, fwiw.
16:49 am{ap}anda: It's very important IMO that voting works well. What other options are there?
16:49 courtneyc[m]: We need clean data in a working CRM with clean processes and admin
16:50 grischard[m]: I think the way this was handled wasn't very good, and that the board member handling it didn't understand how the crm system worked.
16:50 courtneyc[m]: It's not actually hard. We just have to take the time and resources to do it.
16:50 mvineetmenon: @courtneyc, what are the reasons for not allowing a member to vote?
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16:50 James_E_A: It would definitely be interesting to get as much data on this as possible when it comes to looking into how to revamp the voting system for next time. The specific datapoint of how many false ineligibilty notices were sent seems important
16:50 grischard[m]: Beyond that, I don't want to criticise other board members.
16:50 Nakaner2: The 23 votes are not the fault of CiviCRM but those whose browser submitted an empty ballot. Either because they use some kind of ad blocker or JavaScript blocker, or because they did not vote anyone.
16:50 James_E_A: e.g. 23 divided by 740 is not meaningful unless we first add the ineligibility notices to the numerator
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16:50 courtneyc[m]: Hi - I got a notice that said I wasn't elibible. But I was eligible. So, I asked the membership committee and they corrected it. But how many other people got an incorrect notice like that? They might not know to question it. We should be able to know that numbers. What if it is statistically meaningful?
16:51 courtneyc[m]: Just b/c we corrected the ones that were flagged doesn't mean its fixed. How many were incorrect, that were not flagged?
16:51 James_E_A: dorothea, is that data currently available from the raw data download, or could it be made available?
16:51 courtneyc[m]: I'm not talking about the 23 votes. That's a different problem.
16:51 am{ap}anda: (FYI I got also told my membership renewal had failed)
16:51 courtneyc[m]: Not the same problem at all.
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16:51 courtneyc[m]: Right - so am{ap}anda you knew that was wrong, so you probably emailed the membership committee too.
16:51 courtneyc[m]: But what if you didn't know it was wrong?
16:51 rtnf: I agree that this issue should be prioritized. At the very least, we should create an objective post-mortem report on what really happened. (The question is, who will take on this task?)
16:52 grischard[m]: The membership data isn't public beyond the list of members. If you want to help look into this, please join #_oftc_#osmf-membership:matrix.org and we can work on joining the working group and signing the necessary NDA.
16:52 courtneyc[m]: I have joined! Thank you grischard
16:52 grischard[m]: Well, the board member who was doing this isn't on the board anymore.
16:52 courtneyc[m]: There must be a way to pull a report on who got inaccurate notices.
16:53 courtneyc[m]: and truthrully - without that, I don't actually trust this election.
16:53 matkoniecz[m]: Thanks to everyone who voted! And all candidates, good luck both to elected ones and not elected ones.
16:53 courtneyc[m]: This is not a small thing. I wouldn't dispute because I could be perceived to have a stake in it. But I am surprised someone who is neutral is not making this case.
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16:54 grischard[m]: I would support someone looking into this. I love a good 22 page report on civicrm :)
16:55 courtneyc[m]: grischard: can we hire an outside audit? It sounds to me as though the board has exhausted its internal resources
16:55* Tomas_J (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:56 matkoniecz[m]: Note that we already got external help to get CiviCRM more working.
16:56* tgau[m] (~tgaumatri@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:56 tgau[m]: Not sure I would like the board to spend money on an outside audit.
16:56 courtneyc[m]: This problem is a year in the making. How will it get handled if we do not hire someone?
16:56 courtneyc[m]: 740 members voted.
16:56 courtneyc[m]: What is the total number of ballots sent out?
16:57 matkoniecz[m]: grischard: matrix claims this link is broken
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16:57 ceyu: : What is the total number of ballots sent out?
16:57 ceyu: : Of the 1971 voters in this election, 740 cast ballots.
16:57 ceyu: https://opavote.com/results/5126142787846144
16:57 grischard[m]: matkoniecz: sorry which one? The MWG chat?
16:57 matkoniecz[m]: Yes
16:58 courtneyc[m]: So of that 1971 who were eligible, how many got an initial email that said they were not eligible. This should not be hard to discover.
16:58 grischard[m]: Hmm, I had 2088 members in my report, but note that you need to have been a member for a certain number of days to vote.
16:59 courtneyc[m]: so somewhere between 1971 and 2088 people were eligible to vote. 740 voted. The numbers are small enough that it is very possible that people who got the incorrect initial notification would have changed the outcomes.
16:59 courtneyc[m]: I am so surprised that I'm the only person worried about this. How is this acceptable?
16:59* rtnF_ (~rtnF@***.***.***.***) has joined
16:59 courtneyc[m]: I have zero interest for myself. Only for the process.
17:00 ceyu: why is this only coming up after the election?
17:00* woodpeck2 (~fred@***.***.***.***) has joined
17:01 das-g[m]: Now that you've brought this up, I don't think you're the only one who's worried.
17:01 woodpeck2: I would not consider a 30% turnout unusual.
17:01 SK53bis: It seems to me that the issue might be whether OSMF is keeping to the terms of the Companies Acts wrt maintaining a list of members. Can I go to St JJohn Innovation Centre and view the current list? Note this does not apply to 'associate' and 'actie contributor' memberships which aren't coverde by the legislation.
17:01 James_E_A: ceyu It was brought up during the meeting, before the votes were closed.
17:01 Sarah[m]: I'd like to send a huge thank you to datendelphin who has spent many, many hours trying to patch up CiviCRM. That was above and beyond duty.
17:01 courtneyc[m]: It's not about the list. It's about the data in the CRM is not clean, so the incorrect rules are used, so people get the wrong notifications.
17:01 grischard[m]: SK53bis: you can request the list from MWG, but this will not contain dates and detail.
17:01 courtneyc[m]: It's a data management problem.
17:02 matkoniecz[m]: SK53bis: this should be less problematic - problems with distinguishing accounts in arrears is not affecting this legislation mandated list
17:02 grischard[m]: SK53bis: you can join #osmf-membership to join the wg and sign an nda and get full access.
17:02* SeverinGeo (~SeverinGe@***.***.***.***) has joined
17:03 courtneyc[m]: I realize a lot of people worked hard on this. But the fact remains that it was not fixed in time for this election. Is this really. not of concern to folks?
17:03 mxn: SK53bis: And to think that’s the reason that I originally opted for associate membership back in the day, out of concern for privacy. (I’ve since upgraded to normal.)
17:03 grischard[m]: It concerns me.
17:03 Sarah[m]: I'd also like to thank arnalie who kept the membership informed about the CiviCRM isssues, see https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/awareness-on-membership-software-civicrm-issues-under-membership-wg-and-board-review/117106/25
17:03* Tomas_J (~oftc-webi@***.***.***.***) has joined
17:04 drolbr: We do have the data in principle. I've a pile pf Paypal reciepts for people that have paid. Mappers with 42 days can be found from the map data except that they might have need to request membership. Everybody else is in a circular.
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17:04 courtneyc[m]: With respect to Arnalie, we were well informed but the problem did persist. I am not without gratitude for the folk swho worked hard. We still have a problem.
17:04 matkoniecz[m]: It is concerning for me and joining MWG to help with fixing this mess is on my list of ideas
17:04 James_E_A: courtneyc[m]: Of the people who received a false ineligibility ballot, less than 5 of them bothered to attend the general meeting; and none of these reported any challenges beyond opening a ticket.
17:04 courtneyc[m]: drolbr: Does this help us find who got incorrect notifications that they were ineligible?
17:04* luks (aa7e93d3ec@***.***.***.***) has left
17:04 courtneyc[m]: James_E_A: How would they know to attend if they got an ineligibility notice.
17:05 courtneyc[m]: I wouldn't attend if I got an ineligibility notice.
17:05 drolbr: Not for that specific problem.
17:05 courtneyc[m]: Voting is either fair or it isn't. It's not about whether people were able to guess that there was a problem and then remember to report it. That is not a legitimate process.
17:05 James_E_A: courtneyc[m]: Did the notice say that they'd also be ineligible to attend the meeting, or only to cast the online ballots for the one specific topic of board election?
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17:06 das-g[m]: Attendance of the AGM is open to all, including members not eligible to vote and non-members.
17:06 drolbr: The board has not got any other complaint for this specific problem. There we another problem where seomone did not renew their membership because they got no notification of lapsing.
17:06 courtneyc[m]: It says you're ineligible to vote, and if you're ineligible to vote it casts doubt on if you're a member in good standing. It made me doubt it. I went and checked. I'm on the CWG so I know there's an issue, so I had the courage to ask the Membership committee. That is far too high a barrier for anyone to climb and what about people who are not as confident as I am b/c they are not on a WG.
17:06 grischard[m]: Oh, we did get a few complaints from members who'd received something like that.
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17:06 courtneyc[m]: drolbr: If you don't know you got a notice in error, you don't know to complain.
17:07 courtneyc[m]: This is not acceptable.
17:07 drolbr: But this member technically was indeed not allowed to vote according to the AoA.
17:07 courtneyc[m]: The number of votes cast is far too low for this not to be audited. The outcome should be audited.
17:07 mxn: I agree w/ courtneyc – for better or worse, eligibility to vote, membership in the org, and reason to attend the GM are all intertwined from a typical member’s perspective.
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17:08 matkoniecz[m]: And I agree that it was not ideal, but there were no obvious better solutions. And as far as I know nobody raised concerns that upcoming vote is tainted to the point of getting invalid
17:08 courtneyc[m]: Our records should be good enough that reports can be pulled and it can be determined who got the incorrect notices. From there, we can ascertain who didn't vote because they were badly informed. From there we can assess what impact it has on the vote.
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17:08 courtneyc[m]: "not ideal" is not acceptable for a binding vote that has fiduciary ramifications
17:08 courtneyc[m]: It has to be correct when it comes to governance.
17:08 grischard[m]: matkoniecz: I don't think anyone is saying the vote isn't legally valid, but courtney is right in saying this was bungled.
17:09 courtneyc[m]: It cannot be seen as just another project that we work on over time. This must be fixed.
17:09 matkoniecz[m]: courtneyc: how many people voted last year? AFAIK turnout is comparable but I am unable to check it right now
17:09 courtneyc[m]: The credibility of the OSMF and the board stand in the balance.
17:09 drolbr: There is definitely benefit in having a proper report. In my understanding the actual question in the room is whether CiviCRM has a log of sent email.
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17:09 grischard[m]: Yeah, the turnout isn't unusually low, I think.
17:09 courtneyc[m]: matkoniecz[m]: I do not have this memorized, but I believe it was more than 700 . But even that is not the point. The point is how many people got an inaccurate notification this year.
17:09 grischard[m]: Yes, we have logs of the emails sent.
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17:10 courtneyc[m]: drolbr: and if it does not, then things are even more catastrophic.
17:10 courtneyc[m]: As well, it is amazing that Arnalie was so good at messaging about this. But as someone who. has studied the channel data I can tell you that many many people do not see the messages that go out on the listserv
17:10 drolbr: We then should just check how many such emails have been sent and to whom.
17:10 mxn: There have been some very close elections, but STV is too far above the head of this American used to first-past-the-post elections to game out what the impact would be…
17:10 Sarah[m]: We have sent around 200 ballots more than last year. If less members choose to vote than last year, that is not a problem of CiviCRM.
17:10 grischard[m]: Maybe some email were sent manually in individual cases to discuss details, and arnalie wasn't using civicrm for that.
17:11 courtneyc[m]: mxn: lol, the echoes of this are killing me right now.
17:11 drolbr: Courtney has not recevied a personal email from Arnalie. This is not the problem.
17:11 das-g[m]: Echos?
17:11 courtneyc[m]: I truly do not have any vested interest. I can stipulate that I wouldn't serve even if the outcome changed in my favor. I do not care about that. I care about the credibility of the board and the OSMF
17:11 rtnF_: So, the conclusion is: courtneyc is not suggesting an appeal of the election result, but is willing to help fix the problem (by joining the OSMF membership and signing the NDA) (?)
17:11 mxn: courtneyc: Is it November yet? 🙈
17:12 rtnF_: *the #osmf-membership
17:12 courtneyc[m]: drolbr: I am talking about the messaging about this problem. It was not ever going to be enough to alert members to the fact that they might not get a correct email notification about the voting.
17:12 arnalie: Messaging in CiviCRM are done by Dorothea and MWG. I do the external comms in the forum and osmf-talk. Just to clarify, I did not send any personal email.
17:12 courtneyc[m]: Yes, I didn't say you did. I was referring to the listserv notices - which were very good. I was just pointing out that that does not solve the problem.
17:13 courtneyc[m]: Everyone did their best. We still have a problem.
17:13 arnalie: Yes @courtney
17:13 grischard[m]: So I looked it up, and 122 people received a notice that they weren't eligible to vote.
17:13 matkoniecz[m]: How many of them were in fact ineligible? Is it possible to check this?
17:13 woodpeck2: Yes to looking into that further. No to the outrage.
17:13 courtneyc[m]: rtnF_: Yes, I will do this, but I can't solve it on my own. I am not a data analyst. All I can do is keep asking for a resolution. And I can keep suggesting that it is VERY STRANGE that no one else is raising this question.
17:14 drolbr: Ok. Can we collectivly go through them and match them against membership database? I'm happy to match them towards Paypal receipts.
17:14 courtneyc[m]: matkoniecz[m]: A better question is, how many were eligible, that got the ineligibility notice?
17:14 das-g[m]: How does such a non-eligibility notice look? Does it include the reason(s) of why one is not eligible? Does it state where to intervene if one deems the assessment false?
17:14 courtneyc[m]: Folks - it's not about checking if their are eligible. It's about finding out if they got an incorrect noticea bout their ineligibility.
17:15 grischard[m]: I'll post a sample
17:15 ceyu: to find that out you need to check their eligibility
17:15 rtnF_: Is there any unfinished agenda from the plan, or should we continue discussing this issue here and now (until it's solved)?
17:15 drolbr: Courtney, yes. As Matteusz has pointed out, there are actually ineligible members who got an email.
17:16 woodpeck2: It is a good idea to investigate this further but I think maybe we can delegate that to the new board, instead of trying to find a solution here and now.
17:16 grischard[m]: rtnF_: no one has made a motion to adjourn, so we're here until the cows come home :)
17:16 BrazilSingh[m]: from the 122 if 70 were eligible , the result could be different, right?
17:16 grischard[m]: Brazil Singh: definitely
17:16 James_E_A: courtneyc[m]: it looks like Guillaume got the list of people who got the notice, and it sounds like efforts are underway to scrape together the list of people who _should_ have got this notice. Once we have those both, they can be compared against each other to see how many of those 122 sent notices were false. But 122 wasn't enough to change the results of this, right?
17:16 courtneyc[m]: BrazilSingh[m]: Yes.
17:16 Sarah[m]: I move to adjourn the meeting.
17:16 grischard[m]: The 2017 election was decided by 17 votes
17:17 courtneyc[m]: James_E_A: To me, it may well be enough to change the results. But mainly, let's know for sure, and let's solve for the future.
17:17 Nakaner2: I second to adjourn the meeting.
17:17 mxn: courtneyc: re: lack of alarm – anecdotally, there’s a lot of apathy about the election, let alone how it’s administered.
17:17 grischard[m]: That motion is not debatable. To vote on adjourning the meeting, say aye/nay/abstain.
17:17 grischard[m]: Nay.
17:17 das-g[m]: abstain
17:18 datendelphin: aye
17:18 ceyu: abstain
17:18 James_E_A: abstain
17:18 CraigAllan[m]: aye
17:18 Sarah[m]: aye
17:18 mxn: abstain
17:18 tgau[m]: aye
17:18 grischard[m]: Oh dear, you lot are going to make me do a count, aren't you?
17:18 matkoniecz[m]: Aye
17:18 ciupava[m]: aye
17:18 drolbr: Aye
17:18 rtnF_: aye
17:18 Nakaner2: aye * 8
17:19 ceyu: aye * (-7) for fairness
17:19 courtneyc[m]: woodpeck2: Here is what worries me. We are all volunteers. Everything take s time. The new board has an onboarding process. Despite lots of hard work, this issue wasn't resolved before the election. And then now we are saying "let's do this later." And I am sure everyone intends well, but there is a lot of work to be done in a lot of areas.
17:19 courtneyc[m]: And then before we know it, we will be having the same problem for the next election. I have been flagging CiviCRM issues since I joined the CWG three years ago.
17:19 courtneyc[m]: nay, on principle. I love you all, but this is just a sad moment for all of us.
17:20 courtneyc[m]: mxn: It's so true. It's very sad to me. It's such an important thing - how we self-govern. Is this just me being very American?
17:20 grischard[m]: I've been flagging civicrm issues to the board for a while too. The only person working on the bugs for a long time was datendelphin who deserves huge praise and many thanks.
17:20 arnalie: no @courtney your concerns are valid, and this is an important issue
17:21 rtnF_: Now that Stereo's diary even make more sense
17:21 rtnF_: "Some people come on the board thinking they’ll finally be able to implement their ideas, and tell people what to do. This never works."
17:21 matkoniecz[m]: I agree that it is a big problem
17:21 matkoniecz[m]: (CiviCRM state, not that diary)
17:22 CraigAllan[m]: I doubt we will solve this here. I would like to push this to the agenda of the new board for an audit and a plan for a way forward.
17:22 grischard[m]: https://gist.github.com/grischard/ffceb5f55f0b4debfa70205752025c3e this is what the "you're not eligible to vote" message would have looked like.
17:22 drolbr: Courtney I share your concerns. There will be a further investigation, one form or the other. But no one can come up with a perfect plan in 15 minutes.
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17:23 grischard[m]: rtnF_: yeah. Telling MWG to magically fix it doesn't work, as we can see here.
17:23 woodpeck2: courtneyc, I see the point and I don't say ignore it, but I think the issue is about a small bug that statistically affects everything the same way and therefore not too relevant for the overall outcome, and I want the new board to have our full support
17:23 rtnF_: I agree that it is a big problem (CiviCRM's state, not the diary). I would like to contribute to fixing it, within the limits of my own capabilities. However, I have to leave this meeting now due to time zone issues (it's 12:22 AM here)
17:23 grischard[m]: Well, the ayes seem to have it. This meeting is now closed. We can keep chatting.

Comments from Michael Spreng (Membership Working Group volunteer) after the Annual General Meeting

The document below was published after the Annual General Meeting and has comments from Michael Spreng (username datendelphin), who is a Membership Working Group volunteer. Michael was helping with the election and fixing memberships affected by CiviCRM issues. Michael spent some hours going through the log of the text discussion during the Annual General Meeting and writing answers, which he could not have written at the time, as time was limited.

Retrieved from "https://osmfoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Annual_General_Meetings/2024/Minutes&oldid=13255"