Working Group Minutes/SWG 2011-04-22

From OpenStreetMap Foundation


IRC Name Present Apologies
_chrisfl Chris Fleming y
Eugene Eugene Usvitsky y
Firefishy Grant Slater
mkl Mikel Maron y
RichardF Richard Fairhurst y
rweait Richard Weait y
samlarsen1 Sam Larsen y
stevenfeldman Steven Feldman y
toffehoff Henk Hoff y
TomH Tom Hughes y
twain47 Brian Quinion y
wonderchook Kate Chapman y
Also attending
IRC handle Name
apmon Kai Krueger


  • Proposed by: Steven Feldman in previous meeting
  • Seconded by: Eugene Usvitsky
  • Proposed by: Henk Hoff
  • Seconded by: Chris Fleming
  • Old business
  • Agenda
  • OSMF Articles of Association Update
  • engagement with community re: previously stated concerns about AoA is in progress.
  • AoA considering when / which lawyer to engage with re AoA advice.
  • Mikel looking for a consulting lawyer for the AoA group.
  • next AoA sub-committee meeting 25 April 2011 1700UTC
  • web site front page.
  • discussion of front page purpose.
  • No progress. Suggestion that each SWG member get feedback from a new user re: web site.
  • SWG functionality
  • Kai Krueger was nominated for SWG membership and accepted without opposition. Welcome Kai.
  • Richard to summarize attendance to date. SWG will address attendance issues if any next meeting.
  • future attendance may require IRC participation in addition to presence.
  • next meeting Friday 29 April 2011 @ 1600UTC


(11:59:46 AM) rweait: *** Logging Started ***
(11:59:55 AM) rweait:
(12:00:06 PM) rweait:
(12:00:13 PM) rweait: Both need approval ^^
(12:00:48 PM) toffehoff: Hi all
(12:01:16 PM) mkl: i haven't been in attendance
(12:01:26 PM) mkl: can we get a proposal and second
(12:01:45 PM) rweait: I'm withdrawing from SWG effective 30 April 2011. I'll take minutes this week and next week.
(12:02:08 PM) toffehoff: I'm happy to propose the minutes of April 15th.
(12:02:30 PM) chrisfl_: Happy to second minutes from the 15th.
(12:02:55 PM) rweait: both noted. THank you.
(12:03:09 PM) toffehoff: rweait: sorry to hear that.
(12:03:41 PM) toffehoff: rweait: thanks for all the work you've done for SWG.
(12:04:04 PM) mkl: totally second that
(12:04:29 PM) mkl: minutes of the 8th?
(12:05:06 PM) toffehoff: We had a proposal from Steven Feldman last week.
(12:05:07 PM) rweait: needs chrisfl_ TomH and or twain47 for minutes of the 8th
(12:05:10 PM) toffehoff: Only need a seconder.
(12:05:27 PM) rweait: Can we carry forward the proposal from last week?
(12:06:16 PM) mkl: pingeddy ping
(12:06:38 PM) rweait: Let's carry on shall we. We'll catch the 8th eventually.
(12:06:42 PM) toffehoff: I think we can. Since it was minuted ;-)
(12:06:45 PM) mkl: ok
(12:07:05 PM) toffehoff: Can we have a headcount?
(12:07:06 PM) Eugene [~eugene@] entered the room.
(12:07:11 PM) mkl: Agenda for today is: AoA report. Front Page discussion. SWG functionality
(12:07:24 PM) rweait: present.
(12:07:30 PM) toffehoff: present.
(12:07:34 PM) mkl: me
(12:07:53 PM) chrisfl_: hello
(12:07:56 PM) Eugene: Sorry for being late. Hello everyone!
(12:07:59 PM) toffehoff: RichardF has send his appologies.
(12:08:35 PM) mkl: and wonderchook
(12:08:36 PM) rweait: Eugene: can you second minutes of the 8th?
(12:08:50 PM) rweait: and Steven Fledman from minutes last week.
(12:08:59 PM) rweait: and SteveC from Wherecamp
(12:09:23 PM) Eugene: rweait: They look fine.
(12:09:37 PM) rweait: That's a second from you Eugene? ;-)
(12:09:41 PM) rweait: So noted.
(12:09:48 PM) mkl: cool, we can start
(12:09:55 PM) rweait: no Quorum.
(12:09:55 PM) Eugene: rweait: Yes, a second.
(12:10:04 PM) mkl: we're short?
(12:10:12 PM) mkl: bugger
(12:10:18 PM) toffehoff: Also from last week: apmon would like to officially join SWG
(12:10:49 PM) apmon: yes
(12:11:25 PM) mkl: how many do we need to be in quorum?
(12:11:30 PM) rweait: 7 of our 15
(12:11:46 PM) rweait: We said "half"
(12:12:02 PM) rweait: er, 8, of our 15, I think.
(12:12:44 PM) Eugene: And why 15? In minutes there are always 12 members + some "also attenders"
(12:13:02 PM) rweait: Quite so Only 12 on the list on the wiki. So "Six"
(12:13:39 PM) mkl: TomH, twain47 ?!
(12:13:55 PM) rweait: RichardF you leave yet?
(12:14:41 PM) rweait: Do we want to hear the update from AoA ?
(12:15:09 PM) mkl: Yea, totally. If we can proceed with the meeting
(12:15:47 PM) toffehoff: Eugene, chrisfl_ would one of you take the honours?
(12:16:31 PM) Eugene: errr... chrisfl_, may be you start? :)
(12:16:41 PM) toffehoff:
(12:16:41 PM) chrisfl_: Yes sorry, got a phone call.
(12:17:20 PM) toffehoff: We're going to contact some people to join.
(12:17:20 PM) chrisfl_: Summary of our last meeting is that we agreed to stick to governing of OSMF and steet clear of inner workings.
(12:17:42 PM) rweait: Steering clear of local chapters as well?
(12:17:45 PM) mkl: Can you define what that means a little?
(12:18:24 PM) toffehoff: And we're at a stage where we have enough material to discuss with a lawyer.
(12:18:28 PM) toffehoff: mkl: little?
(12:18:29 PM) chrisfl_: Well I think we will need to consider local chapters and the impact on membership
(12:18:39 PM) mkl: or a lot :)
(12:18:57 PM) mkl: i mean, what kinds of things fall under governing, and what under inner workings
(12:19:18 PM) chrisfl_: So we will not include anything about Working Groups for example.
(12:19:33 PM) chrisfl_: That would be up to the board to manage.
(12:20:01 PM) toffehoff: Local Chapters could be part of the AoA when we want to give them some form of voting rights.
(12:20:04 PM) mkl: It would just say that the Board has the ability to create Working Groups, and such?
(12:20:13 PM) toffehoff: mkl: yes
(12:20:18 PM) chrisfl_: Don't think it even has to say that.
(12:20:35 PM) toffehoff: But that does not need to part of the AoA.
(12:20:38 PM) Eugene: mkl: and give them a proper power to act
(12:20:41 PM) mkl: ok, makes sense
(12:21:21 PM) mkl: so the real issues are about how to define membership, grant membership, both to individuals and potentially to groups?
(12:22:01 PM) toffehoff: yes, and about voting rights, power of the board
(12:22:12 PM) Eugene: yes
(12:22:21 PM) chrisfl_: membership is potentially the most complex issue.
(12:22:42 PM) chrisfl_: We also need to look at how meetings are run and voting happens.
(12:22:58 PM) mkl: ok
(12:23:01 PM) rweait: I'm concerned we are now a month into the AoA process, and the larger OSM community has not started to participate. There were community memebers who raised concerns about AoA; Why are they not participating?
(12:23:26 PM) chrisfl_: Current summary of where we are is at:
(12:23:31 PM) apmon: rweait: Has it been properly announced to the community?
(12:24:39 PM) rweait: apmon: ask AoA sub-committee. ;-)
(12:25:29 PM) chrisfl_: I have e-mailed Peter Miller
(12:25:31 PM) mkl: sounds like no :)
(12:25:35 PM) apmon: It is hard for the community to participate if they are not aware of the opportunity ;-)
(12:25:42 PM) mkl: why not a post on osmf-talk?
(12:25:45 PM) Eugene: apmon: we (chrisfl_ and me) are going to contact people who expressed interest in previous AoA review process
(12:26:19 PM) chrisfl_: Did rweait not already e-mail OSMF-talk?
(12:26:30 PM) apmon: An email to talk and osmf-talk mentioning that a AoA sub working group exists and what their intentions are would be good
(12:26:33 PM) rweait: I might have. once. A month ago.
(12:26:35 PM) chrisfl_: or was it just the strategic list?
(12:26:43 PM) toffehoff: There has been an announcement on talk@ by rweait. Announcement on osmf-talk@ would be good.
(12:26:58 PM) chrisfl_: Did we get any response?
(12:27:04 PM) toffehoff: No.
(12:27:15 PM) rweait: Do you want something for AoA review on the osmf blog?
(12:27:35 PM) chrisfl_: Probably worth doing.
(12:27:40 PM) chrisfl_: (a blog post)
(12:27:53 PM) toffehoff: I was just thinking of having a sort thing on what we're doing on the blog.
(12:28:02 PM) rweait: If so, post something to talk / osmf-talk and let me know to point to it from the blog
(12:28:31 PM) chrisfl_: Current summary of where we are at is on the wiki:
(12:28:56 PM) toffehoff: Mentioning some of the issues my trigger some people.
(12:29:16 PM) chrisfl_: I'm happy to post to talk and osmf-talk. I'll put it out on strategic first for comments...
(12:29:27 PM) mkl: thanks chrisfl_
(12:29:39 PM) rweait: Okay, write your "call for participation" or whatever and post it to a list. send me a note if you want me to point to it from or ogd.
(12:29:53 PM) chrisfl_: Will do.
(12:29:53 PM) mkl: anything more on AoA?
(12:29:56 PM) rweait: Anything AoA needs from SWG?
(12:30:25 PM) toffehoff: Again: leads to relevant lawyers.
(12:30:34 PM) chrisfl_: +1
(12:30:44 PM) rweait: please put next AoA meeting on the calendar?
(12:30:56 PM) toffehoff: Which calendar?
(12:31:00 PM) rweait: that'll be a referral to the board for a lawyer?
(12:31:17 PM) mkl: I asked Steven King from Omidyar for a recommendation, but he's been on vacation
(12:31:18 PM) Eugene: next Monday, 17-00 UTC
(12:31:24 PM) rweait: toffehoff, any calendar really.
(12:32:35 PM) toffehoff: Eugene: yes, we moved it an hour later.....
(12:32:48 PM) mkl: I'll follow up with Steven next week
(12:33:18 PM) rweait: SWG admin or Front Page next?
(12:33:56 PM) mkl: what do we need to cover under admin?
(12:34:00 PM) mkl: admittance of apmon?
(12:34:21 PM) rweait: and attendance requirements, membership.
(12:34:59 PM) mkl: I propose apmon as member of SWG
(12:35:32 PM) Eugene: I agree.
(12:35:48 PM) toffehoff: second.
(12:35:52 PM) toffehoff: (or third)
(12:35:52 PM) chrisfl_: +1
(12:36:11 PM) mkl: welcome apmon :)
(12:36:39 PM) apmon: thank you
(12:36:51 PM) mkl: so now we need to talk about what you signed up for :)
(12:37:09 PM) mkl: rweait, can you descirbe the attendance requirements and membershpi issues
(12:37:09 PM) apmon: hehe
(12:38:21 PM) mkl: since i haven't been in attendance, i'm not fully caught up with the issues :P
(12:38:24 PM) rweait: mkl: we've been short / close to quorum. We've had multiple members fail to appear without notice several times. Do we want to take action onthat or ignore it.
(12:38:40 PM) rweait: Earlier we said, two unexcused absences and out.
(12:39:05 PM) mkl: i think we should, cause if it affects meeting quorum, it's a problem
(12:39:28 PM) mkl: who's been missing?
(12:40:28 PM) rweait: I'll summarize the attendance to date and have it for next meeting. Consideration and action to follow that, I guess?
(12:40:35 PM) mkl: sounds good
(12:40:45 PM) mkl: and, let's notify the list
(12:40:56 PM) rweait: Eugene, you said you sent apology last week, but it went astray?
(12:41:11 PM) Eugene: rweait: yes, unfortunately
(12:41:46 PM) rweait: Can I move that we accept Eugene's absence as excused. (He missed 'reply to list' and sent it to one member only)
(12:42:01 PM) mkl: fine by me
(12:42:06 PM) toffehoff: +1
(12:42:18 PM) chrisfl_: +1
(12:42:19 PM) Eugene: thanks
(12:42:44 PM) rweait: I'd like to amend the minutes of the 15th to reflect Eugene's apologies. They've been approved, so we need to note that I'm changing them.
(12:42:44 PM) mkl: so, rweait, you'll summarize attendance for next week. and can someone notify the list that we'll be acting on this next week?
(12:42:55 PM) rweait: Shall do.
(12:42:59 PM) mkl: thanks
(12:43:02 PM) rweait: I can send the summary to the list as well.
(12:43:12 PM) apmon: can we have every one check in at the begining of a meeting?
(12:43:13 PM) mkl: rweait, also sounds fine to note that
(12:43:25 PM) apmon: Some people seem to be on irc, but not necessarily present
(12:43:34 PM) Eugene: apmon: +1
(12:43:39 PM) mkl: yea, that should be required for attendance
(12:44:29 PM) chrisfl_: although are there if we shout by name.
(12:44:41 PM) mkl: we have to note our rules of order somewhere obvious on the wiki. i'm always searching for what we defined as quorum, etc
(12:45:17 PM) rweait: I'll let somebody else start that. ;-)
(12:45:27 PM) rweait: They'll have to come from the minutes, I thinkk.
(12:45:30 PM) Eugene: mkl: yes, that would be fine.
(12:45:49 PM) mkl: Eugene, something you can pick up?
(12:46:39 PM) Eugene: mkl: yes, but I need a list of some description of what should be reflected there.
(12:47:06 PM) Eugene: so, a quorum for us is 1/2 of all members, right?
(12:47:16 PM) toffehoff: yes.
(12:47:24 PM) mkl: rule of quorum. rule of attendance and apologies. nothing complicated
(12:47:44 PM) toffehoff:
(12:48:05 PM) Eugene: mkl: ok
(12:48:12 PM) toffehoff: Look at the section about formalizing
(12:48:17 PM) mkl: cool
(12:48:30 PM) mkl: anything else on this agenda item?
(12:48:40 PM) mkl: can we finish up with osm front page?
(12:48:40 PM) rweait: nope.
(12:48:47 PM) Eugene: but I believe that it should be in OSMF wiki, not general, right?
(12:48:48 PM) rweait: er, nope on previous item
(12:48:53 PM) mkl: i think we had homework
(12:48:58 PM) mkl: Eugene: yes
(12:49:18 PM) mkl: had homework to do usability testing with grandma :)
(12:49:36 PM) Eugene: mkl: but I don't have access to it.
(12:50:09 PM) mkl: Eugene: write something up, and let one of us know where it should go
(12:50:12 PM) rweait: Eugene, ping Firefishy some time this week.
(12:50:17 PM) mkl: that too
(12:50:20 PM) Eugene: ok
(12:51:37 PM) mkl: anyway do any usability testing?
(12:51:49 PM) mkl: i wasn't able to, but will try again in the next couple days
(12:52:21 PM) apmon: Unfortunately I didn't as I don't know enough people around here yet who I could sensibly ask.
(12:53:24 PM) Eugene: I asked the Russian community about their thoughts in our forum. Of course, it's not the newcomers' answers but I think still better than nothing.
(12:53:30 PM) toffehoff: Not very encouraging, but I also have to admit to have failed on this....
(12:54:17 PM) toffehoff: going through my mail history..... had a discussion about it with someone about a year again.... hope I can find his response....
(12:54:21 PM) apmon: But I have started working on the osb integration again, which might give some more things to test at some point... ;-)
(12:54:33 PM) mkl: So I suppose we push to next week for more detailed discussion
(12:54:58 PM) mkl: Let's try to gather some tests, and any materials we've had in this discussion over the past few years ;)
(12:55:07 PM) rweait: apmon: request for OSB-integration? Make the bug submitters reachable by bug responders?
(12:57:12 PM) mkl: before time runs out, just quick updates from the board
(12:57:24 PM) mkl: i'm going to be notifying TWG to take action on routing
(12:57:51 PM) mkl: and i'm still trying to find a time that the Treasurer is available for a talk on budgetting issues
(12:58:34 PM) rweait: Tile policy is accepted and awating publication by CWG (task on me.)
(12:58:49 PM) apmon: great
(12:59:15 PM) mkl: well we're nearing the close
(12:59:32 PM) mkl: guess this has been more of a housecleaning meeting than anything
(12:59:41 PM) mkl: we'll meet same time next week
(01:00:00 PM) rweait: See you all then.
(01:00:02 PM) toffehoff: OK
(01:00:11 PM) rweait: *** Logging Ends ***