Working Group Minutes/MWG 2018-04-30
- Steve Friedl (SJFriedl)
- Michael Spreng (datendelphin)
- Paul Norman (pnorman)
- Jonathan Witcoski (jonwit)
- Joost Schouppe (joostschouppe)
- E-Mail rejected as spam on email@example.com
- Member self service area
- Membership fee waiver program
- missing reminders
Minutes of last meeting
CiviCRM mail problem
Steve is investigating. We want to bring in a consultant to speed it up.
procedures were outlined by Joost
many requests for OSM accounts
In the last few weeks many requests regarding OSM accounts went to the MWG mailbox. They could have found this site: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Contact Maybe change the wording a bit to emphasize that it is not about the OSM account but the OSMF. Contact editor of that page.
19:59 < pnorman> I'll be getting off the train at about 7 past. So if anything needs me in particular, it should be at the very beginning, or towards the end. 20:00 < datendelphin> ok. Well maybe the civiCRM problem. I feel like we do not know what to do next 20:01 < SJFriedl> I looked into this in some detail and we're not really at a place that's actionable without more direct access to the platform, and I don't now how to get that (or if it's even possible) 20:02 -!- joostschouppe [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #osmf-membership 20:03 < pnorman> SJFriedl: have you identified what you would check with shell access? 20:04 < SJFriedl> Mainly it's just digging around the platform code, where the scheduler gets its data from, and looking for debug hooks. Would propose changes for platform team to make to help move it forward. 20:04 < pnorman> platform code? 20:04 < SJFriedl> CivicRM platform 20:05 < SJFriedl> I was surprised that the php cron job had no actionable output, we don't know why it's not picking up all the reminders when it runs regularly. 20:06 < pnorman> That's open source. I think all shell access would get you is log file access. 20:07 < datendelphin> would a dump help you? 20:07 < SJFriedl> Yah, I could always set this stuff up on my own VM and learn it that way, but this is a lot to dig in on. Logs would be helpful but I believe somebody has said there's nothing useful in the logs. 20:07 < SJFriedl> like a db dump? 20:08 < datendelphin> yes. well you answered it mostly already 20:08 < datendelphin> it is a lot of work of course 20:09 < SJFriedl> I was hoping to avoid that, but if that's what the consensus demands, then I'll get crackin. I can spin up an Amazon instance really easily. 20:09 < pnorman> Shell access wouldn't let you change the code either, that's controlled by chef. What I'm wondering is given we have other CiviCRM issuewp 20:10 < datendelphin> pnorman shouldn't you get off the train? 20:10 < SJFriedl> Well, one can always tweak code on the fly and keep good notes, but I understand what you're saying. 20:11 < pnorman> should we move to getting a consultant in to look at all the issues. 20:11 < SJFriedl> will they have the same issues w/ shell access if needed? 20:11 < SJFriedl> if not, then let's get a consultant. 20:11 < pnorman> SJFriedl: Generally you can't tweak code in production because its centrally controlled. 20:12 < SJFriedl> you say "can't", I say "shouldn't", but sure. 20:13 < SJFriedl> mainly there are probably configuration options we can request somebody update: log this or debug that. 20:13 < SJFriedl> I'll just spin up a VM and dive in myself. 20:14 < datendelphin> well it ceartainly takes some of the awkwardness out of it with dealing with owg. The cunsultant is finished and might never return to OSM, but we should avoid hard feelings from fellow volunteers 20:15 < SJFriedl> I've had to do this in the past, I'll get by, and becoming more expert in CiviCRM wouldn't be a bad thing for OSM anyway. 20:15 < pnorman> I can see getting shell access to look at stuff, but not to change stufd 20:16 < SJFriedl> oh sure. 20:16 < SJFriedl> but if it's hard to get any access, I'm ok to do more homework first. 20:16 < pnorman> most companies I've been at would say no to the latter, so its probably a no here too. 20:16 < SJFriedl> fair enough. 20:18 < SJFriedl> I guess we can move on to other things now? 20:18 < pnorman> unless you wanted to become sysadmin for the join.osmf box. which OWG would probably welcome. 20:18 < SJFriedl> is that the same box? 20:18 < SJFriedl> I'm happy to help how I can. 20:19 < SJFriedl> but for short term probably best for me to just dig in on my own VM. 20:19 < pnorman> WiFi source is accelerating away, so away soon. poke me later about sysadmin stuff if interested. 20:19 < SJFriedl> ok 20:20 < datendelphin> ok, then hope to see pnorman soon again 20:20 < datendelphin> joostschouppe: hi 20:20 < joostschouppe> hi! 20:21 < datendelphin> So let's continue with last minutes. 20:21 < SJFriedl> I read them and approve. 20:21 < datendelphin> does everyone approve of them? 20:22 < joostschouppe> yep 20:24 < datendelphin> ok, thanks 20:24 < datendelphin> Well the other two topis were proposed by heather 20:25 < datendelphin> would you like to discuss them, or should we discuss them rather on the mailing list? 20:27 < joostschouppe> well we can't discuss them without her, if we don't have anything to work on 20:29 < joostschouppe> on the civicrm problem, I do feel bad about not getting this solved quicker. Especially since it's also an issue for Dorothea now too. I don't really understand why we are so hesitant on external consultancy. I understand the need to build our own expertise, but I don't see how it should be mutually exclusive 20:29 < SJFriedl> it needn't be, and I'm not opposed to a consultant at all. 20:29 < joostschouppe> The arguments against it went over my head I guess 20:30 < joostschouppe> so why don't we just get you set up with someone? 20:30 < SJFriedl> I don't know how to get anybody access to anything. 20:30 < SJFriedl> and only understand one of the ongoing issues. 20:30 < SJFriedl> (the email one, I understand there's something else going on too) 20:31 < pnorman> At the time we discussed it we only had the one issue and thought we needed to do more 20:31 < datendelphin> something else? There was a problem editing addresses and looking at the activity logs. But that was resolved by a subsequent update 20:32 < joostschouppe> there's our automatic mailing, and Dorothea's issue with sending out massive mails 20:32 < joostschouppe> similar issue I would guess 20:32 < datendelphin> As far as I am aware, it is the mail problem, which is observable in two cases 20:32 < SJFriedl> I didn't realize that mail was the common factor. 20:32 < datendelphin> yes joostschouppe has summed it up 20:32 < joostschouppe> ok, so that just leaves the access problem, right? 20:33 < pnorman> if we go with a consultant, I can proceed with access questions. 20:33 < SJFriedl> it may well be that a consultant can tell us "Oh, we know about that problem, here's how you fix it" but it's hard to know how it unfolds. 20:34 < joostschouppe> ok, so then any reasons to hold of more? 20:34 < SJFriedl> no 20:36 < datendelphin> did I get this right, so we bring in a consultant? 20:37 < SJFriedl> if we have multiple problems may as well get a pro. I'll still dig in on my side but i have a long learning curve. 20:38 < datendelphin> yes it hopefully speeds it up 20:38 < joostschouppe> SJFriedl, I'm mostly suggesting this so the pressure would be off of you. I can see the value of you learning as much as possible about the software; but if we get help you can do it at your own pace without all the eyes on you 20:38 < SJFriedl> Understood. 20:39 < SJFriedl> as my best friend told me once: "never engineer what you can negotiate" :-) 20:40 < datendelphin> my qestion now is more technical, hope pnorman has some internet to answer. Would someone of the MWG do that, or the board? 20:40 < datendelphin> or some mix (some steps get reviewed by the board) 20:40 < SJFriedl> good question. MWG submits proposal to OSM board with details and scope and all that? 20:41 < SJFriedl> actually, we probably should hunt down a suitable consultant first. 20:42 < SJFriedl> the CiviCRM web page has a list of consultants. I guess we'd prefer one in the UK ? 20:42 < datendelphin> And invoving the board will not make it quicker :) we want to keep it as lean as possible 20:42 < pnorman> I don't see anything that *needs* to be passed by the board unless we go over our 1k GBP budget. I suggest first asking osmf-talk saying we plan to hire one, in case one is in the community 20:43 < pnorman> We do want to keep the board in the loop 20:43 < datendelphin> ok 20:44 < datendelphin> so who writes to osmf-talk? 20:45 < SJFriedl> I think I can do that. We're just making a call for experts, right? 20:45 < pnorman> Yes 20:45 < pnorman> Or if someone knows a consultant 20:47 < datendelphin> And by the end of the week if there is no feedback we can start picking one from the civiCRM recommended ones 20:48 < pnorman> I'll toss a note to the board 20:48 < SJFriedl> proposed text @ http://unixwiz.net/misc/osm-civicrm.txt 20:49 < joostschouppe> +1 20:49 < pnorman> No comment since I'm travelling and on my phone. 20:50 < datendelphin> We could even mention that the problem is with some emails getting lost 20:51 < SJFriedl> We're running CiviCRM 4.7.31 on Wordpress 4.9.5, and our 20:51 < SJFriedl> issues relate to emails not leaving the system (i.e, it's 20:51 < SJFriedl> not a mailserver issue). 20:51 < SJFriedl> We're running CiviCRM 4.7.31 on Wordpress 4.9.5, and our 20:51 < SJFriedl> issues relate to emails not leaving the system (i.e, it's 20:51 < SJFriedl> not a mailserver issue). 20:51 < SJFriedl> oops 20:51 < datendelphin> yes, sounds good 20:52 < datendelphin> so any other business? I have a small topic 20:53 < joostschouppe> just wondering what's next for the membership waiver? 20:53 < datendelphin> We get quite a few openstreetmap account related mails to email@example.com 20:53 < SJFriedl> Yah, what the heck is that all about? 20:54 < datendelphin> I guess it is related to this page: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Contact 20:54 < datendelphin> If you search for openstreetmap contact, that page is one of the hits 20:55 < datendelphin> and the wording seems to fit for a random person not knowing anything about openstreetmap 20:55 < SJFriedl> these have been pretty odd emails 20:55 < datendelphin> "Membership enquiries 20:55 < datendelphin> for individuals" 20:56 < SJFriedl> Changing that to "OSM Foundation Membership enquiries..." and adding another column "Manage your Open Street Map account" with a diff link? 20:56 < datendelphin> So I would propose to tweak the wording a bit on that page. Don't know how yet 20:57 < datendelphin> yes something like that 20:57 < SJFriedl> I can go back to the emails and get a better sense for what problem they are generally trying to solve and tailor the wording to that audience 20:57 < pnorman> Odd emails are up to the LWG too. 20:58 < datendelphin> well it was always about account deletions 20:58 < SJFriedl> "Delete your Open Streert Map Account" with a link ? 20:59 < datendelphin> a link to the FAQ probably 20:59 < datendelphin> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ#How_can_I_close_my_account.3F 20:59 < SJFriedl> aha! 20:59 < SJFriedl> yes. 21:00 < SJFriedl> OT: OSMF-talk email sent 21:00 < datendelphin> thanks 21:00 * pnorman is at the hotel, on his laptop, and can type now 21:01 < datendelphin> ok, joostschouppe asked what's next for the membership waiver? 21:02 < pnorman> Next immediate step is we need to have the process for when we get a request. 21:02 < joostschouppe> so I wrote a proposal, but don't remember the feedback 21:03 < pnorman> Medium term, I think we then want to look at those who don't have suitable transfer facilities because bank accounts or credit cards are very difficult for them to get, and those who have financial need. The second being the bigger topic. 21:03 < pnorman> Did we have a proposal for process? I don't remember one, but I can't really check while travelling. 21:03 < joostschouppe> yeah, you worked on mine for a bit it seems: https://etherpad.coredump.ch/p/feewaiver.mwg 21:05 < pnorman> Ah. It looks good, but needed a bit more stuff which I added comments about 21:05 < joostschouppe> I sent a mail to mwg on march 21st; pnorman was the only one to reply 21:05 < pnorman> I edited the doc 21:05 < datendelphin> oh sorry for no feedback. Must have been a bit busy and it slipped through. Good to bring it up 21:05 < joostschouppe> no problem, just putting it back on the agenda as it seems to be the blocking issue right now 21:07 < joostschouppe> if everyone says this is fine, I can start writing the default messages (there's 13 of them if I remember correctly :) 21:07 < joostschouppe> then, what's next? Is the form up and running? ANything else we need to do? 21:08 < datendelphin> Yes the form is ready (not public yet) 21:08 < pnorman> Everything is up and running, we just need to fix the minor issues in the procedure and write the text. +1 to writing the text, none of the things I pointed out will change any of the texts 21:08 < datendelphin> I think I would also prefer that they have to initiate the renewal, like other members 21:09 < datendelphin> We can easily have another form or a checkbox for renewal 21:12 < datendelphin> joostschouppe: would that be ok for you? renewal initiated by member? 21:12 < datendelphin> They will get the normal renewal reminder 21:13 < joostschouppe> Hmm, sure; I just thought it would be good to already do a basic check first. 21:13 < joostschouppe> OK, yes, if that message would make sense to them, then that's definitely OK 21:14 < pnorman> I think the normal renewal reminder is best 21:14 < joostschouppe> ".Your continued membership also supports OSMF financially, allowing it to carry on supporting the OpenStreetMap project." 21:14 < joostschouppe> that sounds weird if you're not paying anything 21:14 < pnorman> Perhaps a different text if we can, although if we can't, it wouldn't be fatal 21:15 < joostschouppe> yeah, looks like the text is tailered now too; eg "You are currently registered as an associate member. " 21:15 < joostschouppe> so we could just adapt it a bit 21:16 < joostschouppe> adapted it in https://etherpad.coredump.ch/p/feewaiver.mwg 21:17 < datendelphin> well but then we would need another two membership classes 21:17 < datendelphin> I would avoid that 21:18 < joostschouppe> ? 21:18 < datendelphin> for a tailored message 21:18 < pnorman> Two? 21:19 < datendelphin> we would need a normal waiver and an associate waiver type added 21:19 < datendelphin> normal would be with postal address, associate without 21:19 < joostschouppe> I just copy pasted from a message to show that it is automated; I didn't mean to indroduce any new classes! 21:20 < pnorman> those on a fee waiver are associate members only 21:20 < SJFriedl> right. 21:20 < datendelphin> ah ok then it is only 1 added class 21:20 < datendelphin> the way it works is with separate messages depending on the membership class currently 21:21 < pnorman> We probably want that added class anyways. We don't reveal who is on the fee waiver program, but we want to be able to track it internally. 21:21 < datendelphin> ok 21:21 < datendelphin> good, then no problem with tha 21:21 < datendelphin> that 21:21 < joostschouppe> so if the procedure is basically OK, than anything left to do before releasing into the wild? 21:22 < pnorman> Nothing but finishing the procedure 21:22 < datendelphin> yes, thats good 21:23 < datendelphin> closing? 21:23 < pnorman> Oh, and writing an announcement and press release. We should coordinate with the CWG for a blog post. 21:24 < joostschouppe> ok, I'll work on it for a bit and send a message to mwg 21:24 < datendelphin> and cwg? 21:25 < joostschouppe> I can contact them too if noone else is on it 21:25 < pnorman> Getting the blog post ready can be done at any time 21:26 < datendelphin> thanks, joostschouppe 21:27 < datendelphin> if there is nothing else, I would close this meeting 21:28 < joostschouppe> seems like it 21:30 < datendelphin> thank you everyone, have a nice day/evening 21:30 < joostschouppe> goodnight!