Working Group Minutes/MWG 2016-10-31

From OpenStreetMap Foundation


  • Clifford Snow (Glassman)
  • Jonathan Witcoski (jonwit)
  • Steve Friedl (SJFriedl)
  • Ilya Zverev (Zverik)
  • (johnarupire) as a guest

Open issues

  • E-Mail rejected as spam on
  • Access to osmf-talk mailinglist
  • Access to Civicrm


Four members are missing.

Minutes from 2016-09-04 postponed to next meeting.

Membership Fee Waiver Program

This program is to waive the membership fee if paying the fee would constitute an unreasonable burden to the member either because of

  • financial hardship
  • lack of a suitable money transfer facility

In return, the applicant should contribute something else of value, for example time. This should benefit the OSMF, and should not just be “mapping”. For example it could be translating some software, or writing a report about the local community, or about one’s mapping activity. MWG should decide if an application meets the requirements. MWG should find some internal guidelines, in accordance with the board decision about the fee waiver program.

Jonathan to gather a list of potential regions where money transfer is not readily available.

Clifford to inquire on the mailing list about suitable tasks in return for the fee waiver.

Google Forms

Two people have now access to the forms. Plan to move to a wordpress form still open.

Information about communication channels when joining the OSMF

A new member suggested to provide some information on the used communication channels in the OSMF, like the osmf-talk mailinglist. This should be possible with Civicrm. A text needs to be drafted.


21:05 < Glassman> I'm looking for the agenda - anyone have a copy 
21:05 < Glassman> here it is - 
21:06 < Glassman> - last minutes (Sep. 4., not yet online) 
21:06 < Glassman> - sign-ups at sotm 
21:06 < Glassman> - bank payments August 
21:06 < Glassman> - google form for membership registration from Henk, Ilya has access. 
21:06 < Glassman> - address change (1 member) 
21:06 < Glassman> - reduced membership fee / fee waiver program 
21:06 < Glassman> - signup mail with communication information (proposed by a new member) 
21:06 < Glassman> - disabling reminder for members with bank transfer (member request) 
21:07 < Glassman> I think we should start. I believe Michael ended up with a conflict so he can't make it 
21:07 < jonwit> Ok  
21:08 < Glassman> I see other people on - datendelphin SJFriedl and Zverik  
21:08 < jonwit> Let's do a roll call 
21:08 < Glassman> Clifford, aka Glassman 
21:09 < jonwit> Jonathan witcoski USA 
21:10 < Glassman> Just the two of us? 
21:10 < jonwit> Go team  
21:11 < Glassman> Two people doesn't seem like a quorum.  
21:11 < jonwit> I haven't filled my non disclosure agreement so I guess a reminder to do so is the first item on the agenda  
21:12 < jonwit> No I think the only thing we can talk about is everyone to sign their forms and maybe to start a email message topic about the fee waiver program  
21:12 < SJFriedl> Hi all, I'm here too. 
21:13 < Glassman> I sent mine to Paul Norman - I'll ping paul and ask him how many waivers he has receved\ 
21:14 < jonwit> Ok have you signed a waiver form yet SJFriedl  
21:14 < SJFriedl> signed but not sent in yet. I need to get my wife to scan it at her office tomorrow. 
21:15 < Glassman> I pinged paul to see if he can join the chat and asked about how many waivers he has received 
21:16 < Glassman> Once he has provided the info we can send out a reminder to the rest of the WG 
21:16 < Glassman> I can do that. 
21:16 < jonwit> Fantastic I'll get mine in this evening  
21:16 < Glassman> great 
21:17 < Glassman> shall we discuss reduced membership fee? 
21:18 < jonwit> Sure let's discuss. 
21:18 < SJFriedl> Isn't the idea to provide reduced fees for those who just can't afford it, sort of like a scholarship? 
21:19 < Glassman> Do we have a clear understanding of what reducing membership  fees is to accomplish? 
21:19 < jonwit> I don't think it was ever spelled out  
21:20 < Glassman> I like the idea of lower fees. Wikimedia is far less expensive than OSM 
21:20 < SJFriedl> Personally if somebody wants to be involved, I am all in favor of quasi-scholarships to help them out. 
21:21 < Glassman> I think we should have a clear set of goals that we expect lower fees to accomplish. How else can we determine if it works? 
21:21 < jonwit> I agree however how and who judges if the fee would pose an undue hardship 
21:22 < SJFriedl> What prompted this question in the first place? 
21:22 < Glassman> Another approach would be to reduce the OSMF membership fees accross the board 
21:23 < Glassman> SJFriedl - I think the board discussed it - but I'm not sure 
21:23 < jonwit> PAUL wrote It would be good to set up a membership fee waiver program. The OSMF has the power to waive the membership fee for associate membership under certain conditions[1] 
21:23 < jonwit> If paying the fee would constitute an unreasonable burden to the member either because of 
21:23 < jonwit> a) financial hardship 
21:23 < jonwit> b) lack of a suitable money transfer facility 
21:23 < jonwit> the foundation can waive the fee, and may require the applicant t 
21:23 < jonwit> o required to contribute something else of value (e.g: time, …) to the Foundation, for example write a paragraph on mapping in their region. 
21:23 < jonwit> Their membership needs annual renewal, just like other memberships. 
21:23 < jonwit> I'm not sure how to judge financial hardship. I haven't been involved in scholarships or similar. We want it to be minimally invasive, yet need to be satisfied that 15GBP would be an unreas 
21:23 < jonwit> onable burden. 
21:23 < jonwit> For money transfer facilities, we accept paypal and international bank transfers. I'd suggest that anyone in a country where neither are an option for most people or the bank transfer fees are disproportionate to the amount being transferred has a lack of a suitable money transfer facility. 
21:24 < SJFriedl> how much pent-up demand is seen for something like this? 
21:24 < jonwit> This was from an email on 9/1/2016 from Paul Norman  
21:25 < Glassman> jonwit - i like the suggestion for a work in return for reduced fees 
21:25 < jonwit> I believe I saw 2 emails asking about it  
21:26 < Glassman> I talked to Paul a last week a little about membership fees.  
21:26 < Glassman> Part of the problem is countries where we can easily transfer money via paypal or bank transfers 
21:27 < SJFriedl> What's an example of a country that would have such a problem? 
21:27  * SJFriedl really just doesn't know 
21:28 < jonwit> I accept the challenge to fact find this  
21:29 < jonwit> I know western union pulled out of a lot of countries 
21:29 < Glassman> The one I can think of is Venezuela 
21:30 < Glassman> We had a problem giving scholarship to the US SoTM conference. I ended up giving cash to a scholarship recipient and getting reimbursed later.  
21:30 < jonwit> So I'll create/find a list of countries that have a problem with wire transfers 
21:30 < SJFriedl> so this is not just about a reduced fee - for a hardship in paying - but an outright waiver for the money-transfer case. 
21:31 < Glassman> I think that is true 
21:32 < jonwit> So the next issue is what level of commitment would be needed by them to satisfy the community service requirement  
21:33 < jonwit> Would this be determined by the osmf board  
21:33 < Glassman> The following was in a proposed revised articles in 2014 
21:34 < SJFriedl> this is a committment to the OSMF, not just OSM, right, so community service might not be strictly doing lots of mapping?
21:34 < Glassman> 1. The membership fee and conditions for regular and corporate membership remain unchanged. 
21:34 < Glassman> 2.  The membership fee for associate membership, which normally is tied to  the regular membership fee, may be waived if paying the fee would  constitute an unreasonable burden to the member, either because of  financial hardship or because of the lack of a suitable money transfer facility. 
21:34 < Glassman> 3. In order to be eligible for the membership fee waiver,  the applicant may be required to contribute something else of value  (e.g: time, …) to the Foundation, for example write a paragraph on  mapping in their region. 
21:34 < Glassman> 4. Just like paid membership, membership under the membership fee waiver programme must be renewed annually. 
21:34 < Glassman> 5.  Associate members who have joined under the membership fee waiver  programme have the same rights as any associate member and the fact that  they have joined under the membership fee waiver programme will not be  public. 
21:35 < jonwit> So armchair mapping your town would not count but giving a talk to your community would  
21:37 < Glassman> FYI - it appears to have passed. 
21:37 < Glassman> jonwit - looks like we would be administering that aspect of the waiver program 
21:37 < Zverik> Hi everyone. Forgot to add the date to the calendar, sorry 
21:38 < Glassman> Hi Zverik - we are discussing the waiver program 
21:38 < jonwit> So we would vote on whether... fair enough  
21:39 < SJFriedl> the program passed, or the details? 
21:39 < Glassman> we should probably document what would be acceptable for a waiver. and keep track of the results 
21:40 < SJFriedl> not only a setup of what the guidelines would be, but a procedure for keeping track. 
21:40 < jonwit> Does someone want to take the lead and write directions for doing this? Aka document using a osm blog post 
21:40 < jonwit> Does anyone know if any member had their fees waived? 
21:40 < SJFriedl> even if the guidelines are clear on what constitutes sufficient community service, presumably MWG would need to know who they are so we can find out if they satisfied their obligation. 
21:41 < Zverik> I'm now looking at the google docs table with fee waiving requests 
21:41 < Zverik> I guess I can give premissions to it to somebody 
21:41 < Zverik> (although the plan is to move away from google forms) 
21:41 < SJFriedl> OR: maybe it's not followed too closely, but instead enforced on re-application - if you're asking for the waiver again, what did you did you do last year? 
21:41 < Glassman> don't do it on my account - move away from google doc. 
21:42 < Zverik> just 6 requests this year (and one in 2015) 
21:42 < jonwit> I don't think doing it once allows them to get a lifetime membership in osmf 
21:43 < Glassman> It should be every year in my thinking. 
21:43 < Zverik> yes, and for some reasons seem temporary, like "I got into a fight at work...I'm broke but I won the fight." 
21:43 < johnarupire> hi,everyone, I'm not member of foundation, I'm here for fee waiver program, I'm from Perú OSM comunity  
21:43 < Glassman> Zverik - did any offer any contribution to OSM? 
21:43 < johnarupire> sorry for delay 
21:44 < Glassman> Welcome johnarupire 
21:44 < Zverik> Glassman: the form seems not to have a field for an alternative contribution 
21:45 < Glassman> I think it would be a good idea to ask the community what they think would be appropriate for a 15 pound waiver. 
21:45 < johnarupire> thanks Glassman 
21:45 < Zverik> Glassman: I agree 
21:45 < Glassman> or is it euro? 
21:45 < Zverik> Last time I paid, it was pounds
21:46 < Glassman> Only $18 US - not bad. Thanks Brexit 
21:47 < jonwit_> I'm going to be offline for a few minutes.  
21:47 < Glassman> I'll send a email to talk asking for input.  
21:48 < Glassman> Zverik - can we get edit permission on the waiver document so we can add in the contribution field? 
21:51 < SJFriedl> Asking the application what constitutes alternate contribution is a *great* idea 
21:51 < Glassman> johnarupire what is your thoughts about the fee waiver program? 
21:52 < johnarupire> We here in Perú dont have any idea about this issue, but we think we can help with some task trought this possibility 
21:53 < Zverik> Glassman: You should receive a mail now. Please do not delete fields and do not edit responses :) 
21:53 < johnarupire> we want to encourage our relation with global osm community 
21:53 < Glassman> johnarupire - did you attend the US SOTM? 
21:53 < johnarupire> no  
21:54 < Glassman> I thought we had someone from Peru but I could be mistaken 
21:54 < johnarupire> we have not yet participated in any SOTM 
21:54 < Glassman> next year 
21:55 < johnarupire> maybe someone from Mapbox peruavian team 
21:55 < Glassman> What do you think would be a good contribution for an annual reduction/waiver of the membership fee? 
21:56 < johnarupire> Creo que permitrá que más comunidades que no tiene recursos financieros puedan participar 
21:57 < johnarupire> sorry 
21:57 < johnarupire> I think that will allow more communities that do not have financial resources to participate 
21:58 < jonwit_> I agree, something like the diary entries I see about HOT where they talk about what they did in their community  
21:58 < johnarupire> In the case of Peru can be a good step to strengthen our community. 
21:59 < Glassman> The article that was voted on suggest that to get a reduced fee or waiver would in turn contribute back to OSM - something other than mapping. We are looking for some suggestions that we could post on the OSMF blog. Any suggestions? 
22:01 < Zverik> Host a mapping party? Blog about community and-or mapping? Send a postcard? 
22:01 < jonwit_> So something like osm-wiki writing? 
22:01 < johnarupire> Maybe, we can tal ves podamos aportar con un post mensual sobre el estado de OSM en nuestro país o comunidad 
22:02 < Zverik> Help translating an osm tool into their language? 
22:02 < johnarupire> maybe we can provide a monthly post on the state of OSM in our country or community 
22:02 < johnarupire> yes, translating is a very good task too 
22:02 < johnarupire> translating wiki  
22:02 < Zverik> for the fee waiver program, we need a one time action. Although having a monthly community overview would be great :) 
22:02 < Glassman> Those are all good suggestions. I'll use them in our message to the OSM community. 
22:03 < Zverik> It should be something equal to two-three hours of work 
22:03 < Glassman> WE've been at this an hour now. Any other pressing items we need to discuss? 
22:04 < Zverik> access to civicrm, which I still haven't given out to anybody 
22:04 < johnarupire> Is, nice, maybe, antoher suggestion can be a translating from local language to english too 
22:04 < Glassman> Zverik - do you have any of the waiver forms? Mine was sent to Paul 
22:04 < Zverik> do we have a list of people who signed nda? I've seen a signed paper at sotm in Brussels, but somebody took it with them 
22:04 < Zverik> Glassman: waiver forms? 
22:05 < Glassman> the NDA 
22:05 < jonwit_> So before everyone jumped on everyone (like me) still needs to sign waiver forms  
22:05 < Glassman> sorry  
22:05 < johnarupire> I dont see any waiver form yet 
22:05 < Zverik> ah. I don't, Paul forgot to give them to me. I'll ask him for the list 
22:05 < Glassman> I sent paul a note asking for them as well 
22:06 < Glassman> he must be busy job hunting 
22:07 < jonwit_> The last item on our agenda was disabling payment reminders and auto adding to the mail distribution when you join  
22:07 < Glassman> who has permissions to do that? 
22:07 < Zverik> what do you mean by mail distribution? 
22:07 < jonwit_> It was suggestions from new members  
22:08 < jonwit_> Yes  
22:09 < jonwit_> 16:33 Glassman - signup mail with communication information (proposed by a new member) 
22:09 < jonwit_> 16:33 Glassman - disabling reminder for members with bank transfer (member request) 
22:10 < Zverik> information like what? I assume we can do that somehow with civicrm, it has quite a few mailing options 
22:10 < Zverik> not sure about disabling the reminder — why would you want that 
22:11 < jonwit_> I guess people get annoyed by emails but I agree that I like to see when someone charges me  
22:11 < Glassman> Maybe an opt out? 
22:13 < jonwit_> So we need to find if opting out of a bill reminder or joining the mail list is possible in civicrm  
22:15 < Glassman> Either someone with civicrm access needs to investigate or we need to get our NDA's forms signed and processed to get us all access to the system. 
22:15 < Zverik> In case of a bank transfer reminders are manual. I just click a checkbox after filling in the details. I can not do that. 
22:16 < jonwit_> So no on the bank transfers and I believe the mailing list isn't even controlled by civicrm  
22:17 < Zverik> which mailing list? 
22:17 < Zverik> osmf-talk? 
22:18 < jonwit_> Yes 
22:18 < Zverik> Auto adding members there, I guess, is not possible. Henk must have done it by hand. I am now an admin so I can look into new members who still are not signed for osm-talk 
22:19 < jonwit_> Great, I guess that wraps up the meeting unless there is anything else  
22:19 < Glassman> There is one other item, but I'd like to hold that until next meeting. 
22:20 < Zverik> okay. I've just asked Paul for these nda forms. I hope to finish at least that thing in a week :) 
22:21 < Glassman> The item is sending out more information to new members how they can get involved. I'll work on it until we meet again 
22:21 < Zverik> Glassman: I assume I can set up CiviCRM to send welcome emails, if I have the text. I'm not a native English speaker, so I'd prefer somebody else to write that :) 
22:21 < Glassman> Talk to everyone next get together 
22:21 < SJFriedl> thanks all; happy mappy 
22:21 < jonwit_> Happy Halloween 
22:22 < Glassman> No problem - it's one of my issues. I'll work on it. 
22:22 < Zverik> yeah, have a nice November :) 
22:24 < johnarupire> thanks everyone!