CWG meeting 2012-07-02

From OpenStreetMap Foundation

Communications Working Group meeting on Monday 2nd July 2012


  • CWG voice versus IRC
  • Licence change
    • Announcement plans around commencing of the redaction tests on real data in Ireland

IRC log:

21:03 harry-wood1: ah that's better :-)
21:04 harry-wood1: So what's been happening?
21:04 toffehoff: Richard has send us an e-mail with some items to discuss.
21:04 toffehoff: the 29th.
21:04 harry-wood1: yes. options for communications around licence change
21:05 toffehoff: Anything on the comm-policy?
21:05 toffehoff: (haven't looked at it for a while though).
21:06 RichardF: could talk about that this evening, yep
21:06 toffehoff: Side question: RichardF: when will your towncouncil meetings usually take place?
21:06 toffehoff: Mondays?
21:06 harry-wood1: We have an apology from rweait for being too busy for his various working groups
21:07 RichardF: Mondays, but only monthly. I'm sure you can survive without me for one week a month :)
21:07 toffehoff: ok.
21:07 harry-wood1: shall we do voice calls on those mondays?
21:08 harry-wood1: (mix it up a bit)
21:08 toffehoff: In that case could we do it on-and-of?
21:09 harry-wood1: yes voice calls one week per month
21:09 RichardF: I can email you my TC dates after this meeting if it helps
21:09 toffehoff: I was hinting on once every other week ;-)
21:10 RichardF: I can't really afford to waste an hour every other week I'm afraid, but if you want to do it without me, again, that's fine :)
21:10 JonathanB: I must admit a strong preference for IRC over voice
21:11 harry-wood1: yeah but then we'll be out of sync. And besides I'm not that keen on voice myself. Prefer IRC on the whole …. but voice has its advantages
21:11 harry-wood1: I think hurricane said she was only keen on CWG if it was voice
21:11 harry-wood1: could be good to get her input again.
21:12 harry-wood1: (although I haven't heard from her in ages)
21:12 toffehoff: Being an hour on IRC or on a call .... I do not see much difference....
21:12 JonathanB: It's not so much the time, as how easy it is to make that time effective
21:13 JonathanB: Without the visual clues you have in a face-to-face meeting, voice can end up with people talking over each other a lot of the time
21:13 JonathanB: or being afraid/too polite to interrupt
21:13 toffehoff: OK, call me old-fashioned, but I'm taking the time for a meeting. And then voice is more effective (for me).
21:13 JonathanB: On IRC everyone can just go for it.
21:13 toffehoff: And you never know who is really in the meeting .....
21:14 harry-wood1: Voice is much better if somebody's angry about something
21:14 RichardF: public IRC meetings are good - more accountable.
21:15 harry-wood1: so if we could make sure we only get angry on the first monday of the month please.
21:15 RichardF: has never got angry with any OSMers ever
21:15 RichardF: oh wait
21:16 harry-wood1: hehe. Well you'll be skipping the voice calls … so we'll never know :-)
21:16 toffehoff: Let's just say I *really* dislike IRC meetings.
21:17 harry-wood1: JonathanB: Can you cope with 1 in 3 meetings being voice?
21:17 RichardF: fair enough. I really dislike voice. These things happen...
21:17 JonathanB: harry-wood1: I can try my best :)
21:17 toffehoff: So, can we find a common ground. Somewhere half way.
21:18 toffehoff: RichardF: I would suggest you put a proposal for the town council meeting to do this on IRC as well ;-)
21:18 RichardF: toffehoff: phone calls and in the flesh are very different. you are welcome to come to the Rose & Crown for CWG meetings every Monday if you like :)
21:18 harry-wood1: hehe
21:18 JonathanB: +1
21:18 toffehoff: I'm all for having a face-to-face some time.
21:19 RichardF: anyway, shall we discuss some actual stuff at some point this evening rather than process-wanking? ;)
21:19 harry-wood1: yes!
21:19 RichardF: right. licence change comms?
21:19 harry-wood1: email us with your TC schedule, and we'll mix in some voice calls
21:20 harry-wood1: licence change comms yes
21:20 toffehoff: adding face2face meeting to the agenda....
21:20 RichardF: cool. I will have to type it up given that the clerk doesn't really do computers ;)
21:20 RichardF: right, so, hopefully you saw my mail of the other day
21:20 RichardF: we are basically very near the actual redaction starting - possibly end of this week
21:20 toffehoff: yes
21:20 harry-wood1: yes. I agree that facebook & twitter should not have too much of this redaction stuff
21:20 RichardF: (probably Ireland for the test run)
21:21 RichardF: so we need to decide how/if to announce this
21:21 RichardF: by definition the test run is the test run, so my feeling is that we confine that to rebuild@
21:21 JonathanB: Another vote for no FB/Twitter/G+ -- it's too nerdy and technical
21:22 toffehoff: ... and the local list
21:22 RichardF: then, assuming that it goes ok and we're ready to run on the rest of the planet, we do _internal_ comms - i.e. mailing lists but not Twitter/Facebook/Google+
21:22 RichardF: toffehoff: yep, good point
21:22 RichardF: (I'd expect Dermot to take care of that, him being Irish and that ;) )
21:22 toffehoff: Sure.
21:22 harry-wood1: I think the start of redaction bot run is a significant milestone suitable for the foundation blog though
21:23 harry-wood1: except do I mean the start of the test run? … not sure
21:23 harry-wood1: testing on real data, so I suppose that is the milestone
21:23 RichardF: not the start of the test run. that's more 'rebuild developer-facing' rather than 'mapper-facing'
21:23 RichardF: (unless you're in Ireland, but then 99.9% of Ireland is ODbL-clean anyway)
21:24 RichardF: I think there's currently some unclarity about how long the redaction is going to take, so we will need to manage expectations on that
21:25 harry-wood1: how long *is* it going to take?
21:25 RichardF: so... is that starting to sound like a plan?
21:25 toffehoff: What are you going to comm?
21:25 JonathanB: Yes -- haven't spoken to Matt et. al in a while, but I assume the IE test run will give an idea of the bot speed?
21:25 RichardF: toffehoff: (a) small-scale publicity (local mailing lists, IRC) when the test run starts on Ireland
21:25 JonathanB: (IE == Ireland, not Internet Explorer)
21:25 RichardF: (b) communication to all mappers (main mailing lists, user diaries) when mass redaction starts
21:25 RichardF: JonathanB, harry-wood1: I think honestly no-one knows how long it's going to take.
21:25 toffehoff: What is going to be in the small-scale publicity?
21:26 toffehoff: Any ways of them to give feedback. If so, where should they send it?
21:26 JonathanB: Something along the lines of "the redaction bot is running in your area. Watch out for it"?
21:26 RichardF: toffehoff: "we are running the test run on Ireland, we will have results asap, assuming it goes ok we will aim to start the full area"
21:26 JonathanB: Feedback to rebuild@
21:26 JonathanB: \?
21:26 RichardF: +1
21:28 toffehoff: In case also some people who were not following rebuild@. Do they have enough info>
21:28 toffehoff: ?
21:29 RichardF: how d'you mean?
21:29 toffehoff: Amazingly enough, there are still people out there who have no clue on where we are on the license change....
21:29 RichardF: oh, sure. that's what we aim to do with the wider-scale publicity to mappers once the test run is complete - explain to them what's happening
21:29 toffehoff: But also for the test-run if you going to post on the IE-list.
21:30 harry-wood1: think that would be a good idea. We should make sure Dermot does that
21:30 harry-wood1: but maybe he's already keeping them right up to date on it, I'm not on that list
21:31 JonathanB: The Irish community is quite tight-knit, I think
21:31 RichardF: I think probably not posting about that at the moment. But I'm in regular contact with him, I can ask him to do that when the time comes.
21:32 toffehoff: ... it might help with fine tuning the wider-scale publicity. (seeing if there's any huh? feedback).
21:32 RichardF: nods
21:32 harry-wood1: can't see any discussion of the test plan so far:
21:33 JonathanB: Maybe they do it on IRC?
21:33 RichardF: yep, AIUI Ireland isn't _100%_ decided for the test run anyway
21:33 toffehoff: They might be using conference calls ;-)
21:33 harry-wood1: teeheehee
21:33 RichardF: ok, so any more to discuss on this?
21:34 toffehoff: What is the plan for outer comms?
21:34 harry-wood1: well I'd be tempted to blog the start of the ireland test
21:34 RichardF: do we want to do any before the changeover is complete?
21:34 toffehoff: Do we need to ping users of our data?
21:34 toffehoff: They might also need some time to prepare.
21:35 RichardF: in _theory_, because the daily updates have stopped, there shouldn't be any change for end-users.
21:35 toffehoff: Ah! the good ol' theory :-)
21:36 RichardF: of course!
21:36 JonathanB: If people are pulling data straight from the API they may be in for a shock, but it will probably serve them right
21:37 JonathanB: ...that's if TomH hasn't already eaten their families.
21:37 toffehoff: Giving some form of heads-up would be nice.
21:37 toffehoff: Something like: It's really going to happen now. Brace yourselves.
21:37 RichardF: where would you suggest?
21:38 harry-wood1: the blog is not very techy, but not very non-techy either. It's a good place for "keeping people informed" (even though people don't necessarily follow it closely)
21:38 toffehoff: I was also thinking about the blog.
21:38 harry-wood1: we already have two three blog posts about "progress" so far
21:39 toffehoff: Not in a technical way, but something like the last phase has begon now.
21:39 toffehoff: ... and we estimate it will take this amount of time ....
21:39 harry-wood1: so I'd be inclined to blog the start of the ireland run, but being careful to stress that this is a test, after which we may stop and have another pause
21:40 toffehoff: We could do a blog post after the IE-testrun.
21:40 toffehoff: Will have some statistics as well.
21:40 toffehoff: read: a good guestimate on time.
21:41 harry-wood1: to avoid setting expectations we might choose not to blog those estimations though
21:41 JonathanB: Underpromise, overdeliver
21:42 toffehoff: JonathanB: +1
21:42 RichardF: yep
21:42 toffehoff: Saying nothing about time, will also set expectations ....
21:43 toffehoff: ... or confusion.
21:43 harry-wood1: indeed. Well let's cross this bridge when we've almost come to it
21:43 harry-wood1: Start of the test run… no need for a blog post you think?
21:44 harry-wood1: I mean clearly it'll be on the rebuild list
21:44 RichardF: personally I wouldn't. sets too many expectations.
21:44 toffehoff: Depends on what you want to say.
21:44 harry-wood1: and it should be on the talk-ie list and other ireland channels too
21:45 toffehoff: It could be something like: it took us way much more time to get the redaction script ready. Complicated this and that.
21:45 toffehoff: the next phase is starting soon.
21:46 toffehoff: It could be a looking-back blog.
21:46 toffehoff: Why it took so long.
21:47 harry-wood1: I think start of the test run is the kind of news which could leak onto other channels anyway. For example someone bringing it up on the talk list, so we'd have to refer people to the rebuild announcement in this instance (or reproduce it on other channels)
21:48 toffehoff: True
21:49 harry-wood1: but as far as planned announcements go… rebuild list should be announcing start of the test run
21:50 harry-wood1: I guess the hope is that it's wont be too big and momentous. We're just cautiously starting some read data tests
21:51 harry-wood1: real data tests I mean
21:52 toffehoff: How does this relate to us wanting to be open about everything?
21:52 harry-wood1: Well we're being open about everything on the rebuild list
21:52 harry-wood1: that's the plan
21:53 RichardF: being open doesn't mean that you throw all the information in the world at people who aren't interested and don't necessarily understand.
21:53 JonathanB: Especially when the information may be misleading -- which could well be the case with the bot speed
21:53 toffehoff: Oh, there are a lot of people interested in the general progress of the license change.
21:54 toffehoff: They are not all reading rebuild@
21:54 RichardF: right. so (a) what's your proposal, and (b) are you volunteering to do it?
21:54 toffehoff: a) we could have a "looking back" post on blog.
21:55 toffehoff: b) no :-(
21:55 harry-wood1: "looking back" blog at the time of starting the test run?
21:55 toffehoff: yes
21:55 RichardF: I'd be happy to see that - it's not personally how I'd do it but I don't care that deeply. But if we're to have it, we need someone to write it.
21:55 toffehoff: We're ending a phase there. A phase that took quite a bit longer than expected.
21:56 toffehoff: We could ask Dermot :-)
21:57 RichardF: we could. I'd be surprised as he seems very busy at the moment, but if you want to ask, go for it
21:57 toffehoff: I can ping him.
21:57 RichardF: go for it :)
21:57 harry-wood1: Well I probably have time to help write it
21:58 toffehoff: It is getting near the hour.
21:58 toffehoff: I'll tell Dermot
21:58 harry-wood1: if it's agree we're going to blog at the start of the ireland test, i can help write that. I think it can be written in way which is careful not to set expectations
22:00 toffehoff: If you link it to the previous phase, you won't have that much trouble making it clear that planning is difficult ;-)
22:01 harry-wood1: "Today we are commencing a process of running the redaction bot for a test on real data in Ireland. Although this is an important milestone it should be stressed that this is an initial test being run cautiously, after which we will be pausing to see how things went. The rest of the world will follow, but maybe not immediately. *The license has not changed yet*"
22:02 RichardF: worksforme.
22:02 toffehoff: +1
22:02 JonathanB: "Any information we gain from this test will be useful to the developers, but may not be indicative of how the process will work elsewhere"
22:03 harry-wood1: there we go. We've practically written it already :-)
22:03 harry-wood1: We said we might talk about comms policy document today
22:04 harry-wood1: I suggest we leave that till next time
22:04 harry-wood1: yay or nay?
22:04 RichardF: fine with me.
22:04 toffehoff: I would like to stop the meeting....
22:05 toffehoff: Still several things to do before the end of the day.
22:05 toffehoff: Serious: would a face2face meeting (somewhere in a weekend) be an option?
22:06 RichardF: it's difficult for me as I have to be in Charlbury on Sunday morning to play the organ.
22:06 RichardF: but I don't mind if one happens without me :)
22:06 harry-wood1: Yeah we shoud've joined you in berlin for hey?
22:06 toffehoff: Luckily there is also a Saturday
22:06 RichardF: yep, London on a Saturday would work for me
22:07 toffehoff: Let's try to set a date next week.
22:07 harry-wood1: alright then!
22:07 toffehoff: I'm off. Good night!
22:07 RichardF: bye!
22:07 JonathanB: Night night
22:07 : toffehoff left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection).
22:07 harry-wood1: ok. I'll post the logs.
22:07 harry-wood1: bye all!